Inner Work and Gender
Justice ~ Page 2
But we also see that men are getting killed on the job, twenty-to-one
over women. Because we as a society expect them to do the more
dangerous work. We have lower standards of health, safety and care for
men. So they’re also injured or disabled at a much higher rate. Twice
ass many women as men have health insurance. That’s not fair. That’s
not justice, either.
If we’re going to talk about unfairness in the workplace, instead of
just focusing on women’s rights, to make more for the same work, or
men’s rights, to have the same level of safety, care and protection
that women do, let’s talk about gender justice. How can we make the
workplace fair for both sexes?
Instead of a "mommy track," that just tries to look at the special
needs of women to have opportunities to care for their children, let’s
talk about a "parent track" that acknowledges that men would also like
to be able to get time off to take care of a sick kid, or attend their
wife’s birth. Instead of dichotomizing all these issues, as "men’s
rights" or "women’s rights" issues, we try to figure out how we can
bring it together and see what’s fair for both sexes.
Elizabeth: It’s looking at gender injustice in its fullest sense. It
assumes that we’re all involved in the system.
The other thing I wanted to say about "men’s rights" and "women’s
rights," that I’ve been seeing more and more clearly lately, is that
they’re predicated on the idea that the "other sex" has the power. In
order for me to have power, I have to take it away from them. Women
need to get power by taking it away from men, because men have the
power. I’m seeing more clearly that some of the "men’s rights"
advocates have a similar angle, that women have the power, and we need
to take it back from women.
The kind of approach that Aaron and I are talking about says that
we’re not the issue here. There’s a power dynamic with something
outside of us, men and women, and in the system of corporate structure
of our culture, or the class system, or the whole educational
structure. It’s not something that men or women are doing to each
other.
Now, some men are malicious. Some men want to dominate women. Some men
abuse their sexual or physical power. But in our experience, that’s
the minority of men. The majority of men are pretty decent guys, who
want to get along with women. But we have a different male language.
Elizabeth: The other side of that is that women touch each other more
often, make more eye contact, smile more, and stand closer to each
other. We certainly talk about different kinds of things. If I were to
come up to a man the same way I would another women, he would get very
confused by the fact that I might come up to him, touch his arm, look
him in the eye, stand close to him and smile at him. He would very
likely read that as a sexual come-on. In a different but very similar
kind of way, when these signals cross over to the other gender,
there’s a lot of confusion. There are a million kinds of examples
about how that happens.
Aaron: We find it very helpful to bring women and men together to
point out these kinds of differences, and then bilaterially negotiate
the kinds of guidelines that they would like to live by. Often what
they come up with is exactly the same kinds of guidelines that are
being handed down from on high. What’s different is that the
resentment isn’t there. Because they have co-solved a co-created
problem. When women and men acknowledge that they both contribute to
the problem, there can be more open communication and we find that
there’s a lot more peace, collegiality and friendship in that kind of
atmosphere than the gender warfare atmosphere of "You guys are all
screwed up, you’re jerks and now you have to live by these rules," or
"You women are all two faced, trying to manipulate us and sending us
double messages, so we’ll just shut you out."
Elizabeth: One of the issues that is not being talked about, is what
it’s like for the men to have all of these women coming into the
workplace. It’s not the same anymore. There are different pressures,
different expectations.
They’re getting lock into institutions ten to one over girls. But in
all the emphasis in the schools, when they say "Let’s have gender
equity," they say "Let’s have gender equity by helping girls with math
and science." It’s a great idea. Female-only classrooms, female
teachers, the boys don't interrupt, and the girls get better grades in
math and science. But the boys are just as far behind in reading and
writing as the girls are in math and science. Isn’t it just as
important to read well? Isn’t it just as important to stay in school?
Doesn’t the suicide rate for boys, five times higher than for girls,
indicate that boys have a self-esteem problem?
If we’re going to talk about gender justice, instead of "girls’
rights," or "boys’ rights," we need to ask how we can make the school
more responsive to the sometimes-different needs of boys and girls in
these different areas?
Part of that is our problem as men. We don’t speak out on behalf of
our own gender as women have. We can’t blame women for that. But
certainly we need to redress these imbalances in then gender dialog.
Bernetta: I sometimes think that kids as a whole don’t seem to have
any advocates. If they're treated as if they don't have any feelings,
the kids treat each other that way, too. I think we have to have to
encourage both men and women to nurture children. It’s like the
children don't have anybody anymore. They used to have mom, and now
they don’t have mom or dad.
Elizabeth: That’s actually why we dedicated our book to the children.
The bottom-line fallout of the gender war is that the children are
falling through the cracks. Our incapacity to be in healthy long-term
committed relationships and alliances with one another as men and
women is resulting in an increasing lack of capacity to parent our
children.
Bernetta: The children are alone so much. I’m glad I grew up in a
traditional home and the mother was there. But it doesn’t have to be
the mother. I would love to see more job-sharing, where both parents
could parent.
And certainly, as Warren Farrell states and I stated in Knights
Without Armor, men haven't been heard. But what I’m finding is that
now that I’m talking with women, and bringing men into conversation
with women, I’m educating about men's issues ten times more than I was
when I was just talking about Knights Without Armor. Because I have
ten times as many forums. Now I have to share those forums with
Elizabeth. I only get to talk half the time. (Laughter.) But I get to
talk ten times as often. Universities are open. Schools are open.
Government agencies are open. Businesses are open. The television,
radio and print media are open. Because this is a much more
interesting conversation.
More importantly, not only do I get to talk ten times as much, but
women are listening. Before, four or five years ago, men talking about
these issues were talking only to men. That was wonderful and
supportive, and healing for men, but most women weren't getting the
message. They didn’t want to hear it.
But when women know that men are coming to the table, willing to
listen to them, they have no choice, out of sheer interest and
fairness, to listen to the men’s side of the story. An "I’ll show you
mine if you show me yours" kind of game, like little children play.
I’ll look at your wounds, if you'll look at mine. I’ll tend your
wounds, if you’ll tend mine.
Instead, we’re stuck in fighting over crumbs, which is what a lot of
the battles between women and men are. The crumbs are left over from
the oligarchy, which has enormously concentrated the wealth and power
of this nation into the hands of a few. When feminism says men have
all the power, maybe 80,000 or 40,000 men have a lot of power. But the
other hundred million plus males in America don’t have that much
power, compared with women. If we start reaching out to one another,
and figuring out how to help one another out of the mess, when we move
into a whole different dynamic, and there’s some hope for us.
Elizabeth: I think the same thing is true for women’s issues and
concerns. At this point it’s a better strategy to try and form an
alliance with men to change the workplace. The fear is, and I think
this is true for both the women's movement and the men's movement, is
that we’re going to lose the piece that we’ve found. The piece that
women have found by meeting alone and getting together. In coming into
conversation, they fear, they will fall back into old roles and end up
just taking care of men, not taking care of themselves.
And I think men have same fears. In the men’s movement it’s "Wow! I
can pay attention to me!" They can delight in the discovery of
masculinity, and not having to respond to women’s pressures and all
the things we put on one another. That’s why we have really
encouraged, in our book and in our work, for women and men to continue
to meet in same-sex groups. Coming into conversation with each other
does not mean abandoning that connection with your own affinity group,
your own gender culture. That’s actually essential. We’re not saying
to abandon the men’s movement or gender ground. That is the strength
from which we need to expand in order to have these conversations.
Aaron: It’s a pillar we can anchor our bridge to.
Elizabeth: It’s about "both/and," not "either/or."
Bernetta: How can a man and a woman work together on these issues in
their own lives, on a one-to-one basis with your partner? In a large
group you’re sort of monitoring things and there’s the safety of
making sure that everyone gets their say. When you've got two people,
it’s easier to get out of hand, because there’s no third person.
That’s where it first begins, first with yourself, and then with the
people closest to you?
Elizabeth: To begin with, men and women need to accept the idea that
there are these different cultures. These different cultures have
different expectations, needs and taboos. We need to educate women and
men about these cultures. For example, over and over again in our
workshops we hear that women want men to talk more. They’re really
frustrated that men don’t talk. Men feel that women bug them too much
to talk. They want to be left alone, to retreat and have more space.
This is a very common theme, although it’s not true for every couple.
What happens most of the time is that the woman thinks there’s
something wrong with the guy ...
Aaron: That he doesn’t love her.
Elizabeth: Or he’s screwed up. The man thinks she’s a nag ...
Aaron: Needy.
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