Best known for their work with Death and Dying, Stephen and Ondrea Levine have taken a radical departure with their latest book, Embracing the Beloved. Based on their their 15-year relationship, which grew out of meeting at a Death and Dying workshop, the Levine's share their most intimate truths about what makes relationship work and not work.

1979, Stephen and Ondrea began teaching workshops about hospice and how to deal with terminal illness. As co-directors of the Hanuman Dying Project, they wrote the phenomenally successful book, Who Dies? (1982), followed by Meetings at the Edge (1984). Their guided meditations through the processes of healing, grief, sexual abuse and subtler levels of preparation for death brought them international recognition through Healing into Life and Death (1987).

They presently live in the mountains of New Mexico, attempting to "walk their talk" by living in a natural environment away from the distractions of the world. Their only link to the outside is a one-way cellular phone. For this reason, only Stephen was able to speak during the interview, although Ondrea was present.

A recent workshop in the Bay Area was one of the few times a year that they "go out" in person to teach in the world. For the most part, people can continue to experience them through their growing library of books and lectures recorded on audio cassette.

CG: Do you believe in the concept of a soul mate?

SL: The concept of a soul mate gets in the way of finding your soul mate. I think that everyone's soul is one. By asking about a soul mate, you imply that there is such a thing as "not a soul mate." If you can find the God inside yourself, you can find the God inside anyone. And when you find your soul, it's already mated to the soul of the other. When the clouds part, the sun shines.

CG: How did you and Ondrea meet?

SL: We met at a Conscious Dying workshop I was giving. She came there to get ready to die. She had terminal cancer. She had actually worked with dying patients longer than I had, so she knew the ways of working with others. But her own body had come to the end of its rope. That was about 16 years ago. We've been together literally since the moment we met. It was all heart. We didn't really know we were together until after we had been together all weekend. Then when the workshop came to an end, I said, "I'll see you in a couple of hours."

CG: Is everyone capable of a conscious relationship?

SL: Yes. That's like asking, "Is everyone capable of paying attention to what's happening as it's happening?" Everyone also has blocks to paying attention as well. It's what we call our personal history. If two people have the intention of having a conscious relationship, that's what they'll have. Even with the purest intention to stay as conscious as possible, all the hindrances, all the confusion, all the balancing of accounts, all our mislearnings block our capacity to learn in that moment.

I don't think that everybody wants a conscious relationship, and I wouldn't even say it's right for everybody. You have to evolve to a place where that's the only thing you do want. You don't want another unconscious relationship. And it's not just that you don't want to be in pain anymore; you don't want to create more suffering for anyone else either.

Consider all these human beings that we have in our past that we have labeled "unsuccessful relationships." Remember that those human beings too just like us only wanted to be happy. We're all in this.

It's not like one person is right and the other person is wrong. It's a matter of finding somebody who has the same goals that you do, and wants to work in the way you want to work.

Ondrea and I often say that in order for a relationship to be really successful in the widest sense of the term, you have to want God more than you want your partner. And "God" isn't necessarily the right word for everybody. Let's just call it the Truth. There has to be something deeper than romantic love.



CG: How do you define conscious relationship in terms of the "triangulation" you refer to in your book?

SL: Conscious relationship happens when two people come together and use their relationship to become more conscious. Triangulation happens with something that is bigger than our small desires, needs and fears. And that thing becomes the apex of the triangle. In the beginning of a relationship, the tip of the triangle is the relationship itself Ñseeking and finding trust, seeking and finding heart in your beloved.

Then your beloved becomes The Beloved. In traditional devotional literature, the term "mystical union" usually means "union with God and yourself" or "union with the God within." What we are saying is that you can have a mystical union with the God in your partner.

When we are setting up that triangle, the couple forms the solid base, but the highest truth is in neither one of us. Neither of us are right and certainly neither of us are wrong. But we can explore what's going on between us to find the Truth.

I remember a story about a person who was very ill and went to his Zen master for advice. He told him about his pain and his difficulty. The Zen master said, "Stop looking for relief. Just look for the Truth." Similarly, when you form the triangle of a conscious relationship, you've stopped looking for relief; you're looking for the Truth.

Eventually, the apex of the triangle becomes the foundation. And the relationship itself becomes the basis for exploring the unknown and enters into triangluation with our deepest nature Ñthe Divine.

Next-->